Cherokee Legend

A Cherokee Legend

An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. "A fight is going on inside me," he said to the boy.

"It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is critical of the Church, he sees it's every flaw, he thrives on doubt, he is angry, sad, and bitter" He continued, "The other is faithful, loves the gospel and the Church, finds spiritual blessings and has a testimony." The same fight is going on inside you - and inside many other people too."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, "Which wolf will win?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."

FAIRMORMONOUTREACH.ORG

This is the unveiling of a project of FAIR.  Then has been in the works for a few months.  Today we (I was part of a small group that created it.) wish to unleash it.  It main purpose and niche is to concern oneself less with the answers and rather to empathize with  the struggle of one who doubts while encouraging them towards faith.  The answers are secondary to their emotional well-being and their having the tools to move forward.  The person struggling must have a desire to find faith to participate.  It is not a playground to promote doubt nor a place to do straightforward apologetics


http://www.fairmormonoutreach.org/

FAIR Mormon Outreach - is a online community designed to help those who are struggling with the paradigm of Faith and Doubt and who also want to find ways to choose Faith.

Welcome to our community!  This is not just our community, but it is yours as well. It is a safe place for you to explore with others the questions and challenges that confront  you as you live a life of faith as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We are here to help you and to support you as you seek continued participation in the Church despite questions or doubts you experience.

No question or concern is off limits. We do ask however, that you approach every issue you face with an eye towards reconciling your questions with the faith you have felt in the past. Our goal is to help you regain, maintain, or increase your faith in the restored gospel. If this is your desire, this is place where you find help in your journey.

We are here because we know what it is like to struggle, and we have found perspectives that bring us peace, and we want to share that with you. It is our prayer that we might play some small role in helping you in your personal journey!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My personal thoughts

- This site is unconnected to my podcast and is an offshoot of FAIRLDS.ORG.  That said I was part of a small group of individuals who put this site together.  The group I worked with care and really hope to help others in their faith.  This has been as sincere an effort as anything I have worked on

- This board seeks to show compassion, empathy, and understanding while offering ways to see one's struggles that allow for Faith in the Lord's Church.

-  It seeks to validate their struggle rather then minimize it.

- This board is not a place to debate the issues.  Even as a faithful believer - If you are contentious in the slightest way - you will be tossed

- This board is not a place to try and promote doubt but it is a place where one should feel welcome to get their struggle off their chest and not feel judged as long as the objective is to gain Faith

-  This board is not a place for Critics to come and play, they will be thrown out quickly. 

Faith Crisis - Stake Training Fireside

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/04/16/faith-crisis-stake-training/

Faith Crisis Training Fireside for Stake Leaders.

This shares with you a presentation I put on for Leaders in my stake in hopes of raising awareness of Faith Crisis and how we can better help.  I am hoping Some of you will do the same.  Included in this is a list of things I included in a Packet that was handed out to each leader present.  You will also need the power point presentation.  Email me and I will send it to you.  You are free to use and adapt as needed though I ask you give credit where it is due (Bill Reel and FAIR)  email to get the PowerPoint Presentation - reelmormon@gmail.com

The presentation is most effective if you create a packet for each using the resources below as well as show the power point.

Email me for the Power Point Presentation - reelmormon@gmail.com


Binder Packet includes

FAITH CRISIS RESOURCES

1.) Richard Bushman - The following is Richard Bushman's introduction paper to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008

http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html

pages 2 -4

2.) Terryl Givens - University of Richmond - From a Fireside Presentation to the Single Adult Stake, Palo Alto, CA 14 October 2012. Revised on October 22, 2012.

http://terrylgivens.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Letter-to-a-Doubter.pdf

pages 5-10

3.) Russell Hancock - This is a transcript of unprepared remarks by Russell Hancock - 1st Counselor, Menlo Park Stake Presidency to the Valparaiso Ward Elders Quorum 6 May 2012

http://geoffsn.blogspot.com/2012/08/russell-hancock-on-testimony-and-church.html

pages 11-15

4.) Marlin Jensen – Seventy Emeritus -First Quorum of the Seventy - Excerpts from a Q&A with Elder Marlin K. Jensen (Church Historian and Recorder) at USU.

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/01/rescue-plan-to-address-difficulties-of.html

pages 16-17

5.) Bill Reel & John Lynch – Members of FAIR (FAIR.LDS.ORG) – Suggestions on how best to help someone in a crisis of faith

pages 18-19

6.) Fowlers theory on stages of faith. - http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/fowler.htm
How Fowler's theory applies to Later-Day Saints - http://members.digis.net/jeffret/stages/sof_inst.html

pages 20-21

Places on the web to go for answers

-   FAIR.LDS.ORG

-   http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml

-   http://www.shields-research.org/

Books to read for answers

• “Shaken Faith Syndrome” - Michael Ash
• Rough Stone Rolling – Richard Bushman
• By the Hand of Mormon – Terryl Givens
• The God who Weeps – Terryl Givens

other articles

- https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/155-32-41.pdf

-   http://www.fairblog.org/2012/12/12/keeping-the-faith-7a-the-reel-story/

-   http://www.fairblog.org/2012/12/12/keeping-the-faith-7b-the-reel-story/

Brad Wilcox - Interview on the way

BRAD WILCOX - INTERVIEW COMING
mormondiscussion.podbean.com
March 30th, 2013
Brad Wilcox - Author of "The Continuous Atonement" & "The Continuous Conversion" will be our guest on Mormon Discussion in late April. He is also the the speaker of the most listened to Talk on BYU Speeches "His Grace is Sufficient".

Bro Wilcox's parables and analogies regarding Grace and the Atonement have helped a new generation of Latter-Day Saints discover their worth is not found in being perfect but in the becoming perfect in Christ.

Bro. Wilcox has offered a signed copy of his book to one listener of this program which we will announce during the interview. In order to be entered in to win, please email me at reelmormon@gmail.com with your name and address to mail the book to.

Any Questions you want to see asked please email me those as well.

This guy is my hero in so many ways..... I am going to be more giddy then a 5 year old meeting Santa.  Send your feedback and questions - reelmormon@gmail.com

Interview with Chris Reeve

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/

CHRIS REEVE INTERVIEW PART 1

March 25th, 2013

Part 1 & 2 of my interview with Chris Reeve.  Chris is a friend of mine who used to live in my ward and served with me in Leadership Callings.  I always appreciated his intellect and way of seeing things from a different vantage point then me.  We discuss his faith, inoculation against troublesome material, and how spiritual experiences have rooted him in his sure foundation of faith

Chris served with me as 2nd counselor in the Bishopric when I was called as a Bishop.  While serving together we never entered a conversation about these issues.  It was only after his moving away from our ward, and hearing about my crisis and and my interview with FAIR that he became aware and contacted me.  

As we had this interview, I was reminded how important it is to seek spiritual experiences, to nourish our faith.  It also became more obvious that when one has these troublesome issues discussed at a young age in a way that allows one to encounter them one by one.... in more times then not, this works to help avoid Faith Crisis.

Also the podcast has a new look, check it out.  If your interested, I will be speaking in the Kirtland Temple April 27th in the Mormons in the Middle Conference.  

Registration is available at       https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/symposium/

Thanks for Listening

Bill

Women Praying at Conference.

John Dehlin first reported this and now we have an article from the Salt Lake Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56026380-78/women-general-conference-pray.html.csp

Women praying at conference sessions shows just how far the church has come in an effort to do two things.

1.) Rid itself of non-doctrinal tradition that gets in the way by discriminating needlessly

2.) Working to ensure that any incorrect beliefs or false teaching work themselves out of the church.

consider all that has happened in recent months and years
- Bushman rough stone rolling
- Joseph Smith papers - both in book and online form
- Apostles Christofferson and Anderson addressing Doctrine.
- Marlin Jensen addressing faith crisis in the church
- New Youth instruction
- Conference prayers
- handbook stating both women and men can give prayers in meetings
- New websites dealing with SSA and homosexuality

I am sure there are others that I am missing at the moment.

I also have it on good word this conference will also include talks (at least 1) that will address faith crisis.

Financial status of the Podcast

STATUS OF DONATIONS AND A NEED

March 16th, 2013

I know I seem to come to my listeners often asking for financial backing.  I wanted to make you aware of a need and how MormonDiscussion has spent the money.  First I have received about $522.00 from Listeners.... How awesome is that... you guys are so great.

I have purchased a laptop which has allowed to me work on the podcast and publish shows and edit them from work.  This has been a blessing.  The last two episdes including the Montgomery interview were done by laptop as I was away from home.  I paid for about a third of it the podcast donations paid the rest

I recently purchased a higher quality Mic and POP filter which you should hear in the next episode.  It was also used in the beginning of the Anthon Episode.  This was paid for by our Sponsor COSTA RICA TRAVELPASS (costaricatravelpass.com).... they get a big thumbs up!!!

I have also purchased a couple of books on ebay that instructed how to use Audacity and running a podcast...

I want you to know every dollar goes towards the podcast and your support is so appreciated by me.

Now for a need

I have been asked by FAIR (FAIRLDS.ORG)to join a panel discussion in Utah to share the point of view of those in Crisis and my personal view.  Unfortunately this is above and beyond what I can do.   If anyone who listens to the podcast sees worth in this and would want to support this trip.  Please email me at reelmormon@gmail.com.  I DO NOT want a paypal donation because if I can not raise the total amount I need I do not want you to have donated a partial amount if I can get the rest of it.  I am hopeful the panel discussion would be an episode if I am able to be there.

the conference will take place on August 1 & 2 at the Utah Valley Convention Center in Provo.  It appears the costs would be in the neighborhood of $900.00

Airfare - round trip $600.00 if I am reading computer screen right

I also would need a place to stay.

rental Car - or transportation to and from conference.

I am hopeful $900.00 would cover all I need.

If not no biggie but if anyone has the desire to do part or all of this let me know by email

reelmormon@gmail.com

Mormons in the Middle - Sunstone symposium

Sunstone Kirtland new dates: April 26-28, 2013

We’re thrilled to announce we are returning to Kirtland for another regional conference!

Sunstone has joined forces with the local Mormons in the Midwest group to co-plan this conference focused on the theme, “Mormons in the Middle,” a nod to both Midwest geography and the position Mormons outside the Intermountain West often find themselves in.

The schedule will include:

• A Friday evening keynote speaker and potluck

• Saturday morning concurrent sessions/panels

• Kirtland Temple tours

• Saturday afternoon workshops featuring Natasha Helfer Parker and Jennifer Finlayson Fife

• Saturday evening keynotes in the Kirtland Temple featuring Bishop Kevin Kloosterman, Bishop Reel, and local Kirtland historian Karl Ricks Anderson

• Sunday morning services at local congregations (to be announced) and additional Kirtland Temple tours

We will be posting a more complete Kirtland schedule and registration information soon!

New Edition of the Scriptures

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/new-edition?lang=eng

News of these changes can also be found at the folowing
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile/55930173-68/church-lds-changes-mormon.html.csp
http://www.timescall.com/ci_22714279/new-mormon-scriptures-tweak-race-polygamy-references
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865574523/LDS-Church-announces-new-scripture-edition.html?pg=all

This will have a large impact on faith crisis issues as you will notice from the following changes.

Book Of Mormon

Intro., par. 1, sent. 2—Changed “a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas” to “a record of God’s dealings with ancient inhabitants of the 
Americas,” deleting the in “with the ancient inhabitants” to provide clarity and greater accuracy.


Intro., par. 2, last sentence—Changed the phrase “they are the principal ancestors” to
“they are among the ancestors,” providing clarity and greater accuracy, so that the
statement reads: “. . . all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among 
the ancestors of the American Indians.”

D&C

D&C 132, sect. intro.—Revised the introduction to read:
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded July 12, 1843, relating
to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant and the principle of
plural marriage. Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, evidence indicates that some of the principles involved in this revelation were known by the Prophet as early as 1831. See Official Declaration 1.

OD 1—Added the following introduction and historical background to Official
Declaration 1, and placed it in an italic typeface to indicate that it is a study help:
The Bible and the Book of Mormon teach that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise (see 2 Samuel 12:7–8 and Jacob 2:27, 30). Following a revelation to Joseph Smith, the 
practice of plural marriage was instituted among Church members in the early 1840s (see section 132). 
From the 1860s to the 1880s, the United States government passed laws to make this religious practice illegal. These laws were eventually upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court. After receiving revelation, President 
Wilford Woodruff issued the following Manifesto, which was accepted by the Church as authoritative and 
binding on October 6, 1890. This led to the end of the practice of plural marriage in the Church.



OD 2—Added the following introduction and historical background to Official
Declaration 2, and placed it in italics to indicate that it is a study help:
The Book of Mormon teaches that “all are alike unto God,” including “black and white, bond and free,
male and female” (2 Nephi 26:33). Throughout the history of the Church, people of every race and ethnicity in many countries have been baptized and have lived as faithful members of the Church. During 
Joseph Smith’s lifetime, a few black male members of the Church were ordained to the priesthood. Early 
in its history, Church leaders stopped conferring the priesthood on black males of African descent. 
Church records offer no clear insights into the origins of this practice. Church leaders believed that a 
revelation from God was needed to alter this practice and prayerfully sought guidance. The revelation 
came to Church President Spencer W. Kimball and was affirmed to other Church leaders in the Salt 
Lake Temple on June 1, 1978. The revelation removed all restrictions with regard to race that once applied to the priesthood.



Pearl of Great Price
Introduction, paragraph 1, last sentence—Changed “These items were produced by the 
Prophet Joseph Smith and were published in . . .” to “These items were translated 
and produced by the Prophet Joseph Smith, and most were published in . . .”
Introduction, paragraph 4, item 2—Changed “A translation from some Egyptian papyri 
that came into the hands of Joseph Smith in 1835, containing writings of the patriarch 
Abraham” to “An inspired translation of the writings of Abraham. Joseph Smith began the translation in 1835 after obtaining some Egyptian papyri.”

The Anthon Transcript : Two sides of a Story

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/02/26/anthon-transcript-what-do-we-make-of-the-conflicting-stories/

Anthon Transcript :What do we make of the conflicting stories

Feb 26th, 2013 by mormondiscussion

This much we know - Martin Harris was sent by Joseph Smith to visit the learned in New York with a Transcript in hand.   One of those individuals he met with was professor Charles Anthon.   The transcript which allegedly contained "reformed egyptian" straight off the metal plates from the Mormon "Golden Bible" along with a proposed translation.  This is where the stories separate.  Martin Harris and Joseph SMith claim Martin came back reporting Charles Anthon had confirmed the Characters and the translation.  As we will see though, Charles Anthon has a different story to tell.  Who's lying and who is telling the truth?  That is the focus of this episode of Mormon Discussion.  What say ye?

http://thedigitalvoice.com/enigma/essays/AAffair1.htm

Kinderhook Plates - Perhaps there is more to this story.

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf

Don Bradley concludes


So what conclusions can we draw from all this? This is not really the conclusions we
can draw for all this, this is a shameless plug for my forth-coming book, The Lost 116 Pages:
Discovering the Book of Mormons Unknown  Stories, which I had optimistically thought
would be out in September, and now I’m trying to get out in November. Anyway, shameless
plug over, so conclusions here: the text that Joseph from what Clayton calls a “portion” of
the Kinderhook plates can be derived from a single character definition – so that portion
that he is describing is probably just a single character  -    near the beginning of the
Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language. Substantially the same character
appears on the Kinderhook plates as one of their most prominent characters. An eyewitness
account, written on the day of the event has Joseph Smith comparing the characters from
the two sources, finding a match and enabling him to decipher at least one of the
characters.
So, a larger conclusion that we can draw is that we’ve got both the smoking-gun –
the GAEL that he uses to translate, and we’ve got an eyewitness. We know exactly how
Joseph Smith attempted to translate from the Kinderhook plates and obtain the content
that Clayton says he did. A larger conclusion, then, that we can draw is that Joseph Smith
translated from the Kinderhook plates not by revelation, but by non-revelatory means.
So, we have James D.  Bales saying “only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates,” and
we’ve got Joseph Smith saying, “a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such.” And
when a prophet is just comparing characters in two documents, he is not “acting as such.”
Thank you.

Newest Episode = FAITH

The protion with audio from Terryl Givens comes from
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/why-mormon-answer


Newest Episode - FAITH 
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/02/18/why-faith-is-a-choice-and-more-important-then-knowledge/

What is FAITH? How does it relate to Knowledge? Is FAITH a choice? Why should it be a choice?

Do we have to KNOW the gospel is true or is there value in just HOPING and ACTING enough?

Is it more esteemed to have FAITH or KNOWLEDGE?

Is DOUBT part of FAITH?

How can we become more comfortable with FAITH and HOPE when so many other seem sure in their KNOWLEDGE?

http://mormonchallenges.org/

http://mormonchallenges.org/

Awesome new site they begins to address faith crisis in a very real way.  Includes John Dehlin and Terryl Given's voices.   Check it out.

• Alone

  Feeling alone, Justin shares with his father and wife his concerns about his church and comes to a new understanding of his faith and those he loves.  ...

• Book of Abraham Challenge 3. Joseph Smith Got Nothing Right?

  But I have heard that in 1912 Egyptologists examined the same facsimiles and Joseph Smith's translations, and they say he go nothing right in the...

Richard Bushman - Podcast - Apr 27th conference "Middle"

The newest Episode is up
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/02/12/richard-bushman-describes-faith-crisis/
and centers on the 2008 comments of Richard Bushman

This episode begins by discussing where the podcast is and some of the neat things that have occurred.  We conclude by sharing remarks by  Richard Bushman
The following is Richard Bushman's introduction paper to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008.
For me he gets at the heart of it!!!!!

Information April 27th Conference "Mormons in the Middle"

Conference will take place April 26-27th

For those arriving early, there will be a potluck on Friday night.   Otherwise there will be three sessions.  

Session 1: Mental health Workshop led by two LDS licensed family therapists (Natasha Helfer Parker & Jennifer Finlayson Fife)  (noon to 1:30pm)

Session 2:  Regional Speakers:  Bill Reel, Kevin Kloosterman, another speaker pending,  (2:00pm to 3:30pm)

Tour of the Kirtland Temple:  3:30pm

Session 3:  (In the Kirtland Temple), Jan Shipps (author of several books and articles on Mormonism and Mormon culture) and Bro. Karl Anderson ( Author: Joseph Smith Kirtland), another speaker pending. (6:30pm to 8:00pm)

  

Cost:  still to be determined though likely in the $35.00 to $40.00 range.   

Bloggernacle burnout

So......  Helping so many folks discuss Faith Crisis has placed me in burnout mode.   I need a break, so what do I do?  Let me recommend the following items to do when hovering in the bloggernacle has you burned out.  First, step away from LDS discussion boards and blogs like mine for two weeks and let all your feelings subside...  then pick one or two things from this list.

1.) read the Book of Mormon...  I mean really read it.  Put all your emotion aside and read it looking for the words of eternal life......  man does this work for me.

2.) find a talk on byu speeches website      http://speeches.byu.edu/

also BYU-Idaho Speeches     http://web.byui.edu/devotionalsandspeeches/speeches.aspx

My personal favorite =  http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1966  - Brad Wilcox - his grace is suffcient

3.) read a good book that has nothing to do with mormonism
my recommendations
Hatchet by Gary Paulsen (Bradbury)
The Giver by Lois Lowry (Houghton)
Where the Red Fern Grows
and
Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry by Mildred D. Taylor (Dial)
yes they are all childrens books.... but trust me you'll like them

4.) go serve someone... it always feels good

5.)  do something for you... ballroom dancing with my wife is one of my things... find yours

Best Parables/Stories in the church

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/08/26/best-of-stories-and-parables-in-the-church/

This was an older episode of my young podcast that gets overlooked.  One that I really love.

Matt Francom Interview is up

Matt Francom Interview is up
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/

Part 1
Feb 4th, 2013 by mormondiscussion
I sit down with Matt Francom.  We discuss his difficult childhood,  rebellion as a young man, his Mission, and his deconstruction of his faith.  He discusses his encounter with polygamy in the church's early history and a tragic event in his life that made polygamy hit home.  We discuss his removing himself and his family into inactivity and complete disbelief.  He ends part 1 describing his lowest moment on his journey.

Part 2
Matt Francom retells how he rebounded from his lowest point outside the church recounting the tender mercies of the Savior to slowly bring him full circle.  He talks about the impact of a supportive but encouraging spouse, Leaving room to arrive somewhere beautiful, and how he found his way....... back  in the LDS church, active and with a vibrant testimony of Jesus Christ.

Richard Bushman : Faith Crisis

http://dan-christiansen.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html

Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?

These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all. They become atheist or agnostic. Some feel the restrictions they grew up with no longer apply. The strength has been drained out of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and chastity. They partly welcome the new freedom of their agnostic condition. Now they can do anything they please without fear of breaking the old Mormon rules. The results may not be happy for them or their families.

Others piece together a morality and a spiritual attitude that stops them from declining morally, but they are not in an easy place. When they go to church, , they are not comfortable. Sunday School classes and Sacrament meeting talks about Joseph Smith and the early church no longer ring true. How can these people believe these “fairy tales,” the inquirers ask. Those who have absorbed doses of negative material live in two minds: their old church mind which now seems naive and credulous, and their new enlightened mind with its forbidden knowledge learned on the Internet and from critical books.

A friend who is in this position described the mindset of the disillusioned member this way:

“Due to the process of learning, which they have gone through, these [two-minded] LDS often no longer accept the church as the only true one (with the only true priesthood authority and the only valid sacred ordinances), but they see it as a Christian church, in which good, inspired programs are found as well as failure and error. They no longer consider inspiration, spiritual and physical healing, personal and global revelation limited to the LDS church. In this context, these saints may attend other churches, too, where they might have spiritual experiences as well. They interpret their old spiritual experiences differently, understanding them as testimonies from God for them personally, as a result of their search and efforts, but these testimonies don’t necessarily have to be seen as a confirmation that the LDS church is the only true one.

“Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

He then offers a recommendation:

“It is necessary that the church not only shows more support and openness to these ‘apostates’ but also teaches and advises all members, bishops, stake presidents etc., who usually don’t know how to deal with such a situation in terms of organizational and ecclesiastical questions and – out of insecurity – fail to treat the critical member with the necessary love and respect that even a normal stranger would receive.”

Those are the words of someone who has lost belief in many of the fundamentals and is working out a new relationship to the Church. Other shaken individuals recover their belief in the basic principles and events but are never quite the same as before. Their knowledge, although no longer toxic, gives them a new perspective. They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. Here are some of the characteristics of people who have passed through this ordeal but managed to revive most of their old beliefs.

1. They often say they learned the Prophet was human. They don’t expect him to be a model of perfect deportment as they once thought. He may have taken a glass of wine from time to time, or scolded his associates, or even have made business errors. They see his virtues and believe in his revelations but don’t expect perfection.

2. They also don’t believe he was led by revelation in every detail. They see him as learning gradually to be a prophet and having to feel his way at times like most Church members. In between the revelations, he was left to himself to work out the methods of complying with the Lord’s commandments. Sometimes he had to experiment until he found the right way.

3. These newly revived Latter-day Saints also develop a more philosophical attitude toward history. They come to see (like professional historians) that facts can have many interpretations. Negative facts are not necessarily as damning as they appear at first sight. Put in another context along side other facts, they do not necessarily destroy Joseph Smith’s reputation.

4. Revived Latter-day Saints focus on the good things they derive from their faith–the community of believers, the comforts of the Holy Spirit, the orientation toward the large questions of life, contact with God, moral discipline, and many others. They don’t want to abandon these good things. Starting from that point of desired belief, they are willing to give Joseph Smith and the doctrine a favorable hearing. They may not be absolutely certain about every item, but they are inclined to see the good and the true in the Church.

At the heart of this turmoil is the question of trust. Disillusioned Latter-day Saints feel their trust has been betrayed. They don’t know whom to trust. They don’t dare trust the old feelings that once were so powerful, nor do they trust church leaders. They can only trust the new knowledge they have acquired. Those who come back to the Church are inclined to trust their old feelings. Their confidence in the good things they knew before is at least partially restored. But they sort out the goodness that seems still vital from the parts that now seem no longer tenable. Knowledge not only has given them a choice, it has compelled them to choose. They have to decide what they really believe. In the end, many are more stable and convinced than before. They feel better prepared to confront criticism openly, confident they can withstand it.
- - - -

The members of the seminar on “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” a group of Religious Education and CES faculty who met at BYU for six weeks in the summer of 2008, are among those who have known Latter-day Saints in this state of confusion and doubt. We have had many opportunities to talk to questioners about their problems and admit that we have often fallen short in our answers. We came together in hopes of learning to do better. Besides gathering information on a series of specific issues, we have discussed how best to deal with questioning Saints. What way of speaking is most likely to win their trust and convince them we have their best interests at heart?

We began by agreeing that criticisms of Joseph Smith should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. The negative attacks that disturb first-time readers are usually based on facts, not merely prejudiced fabrications. To play down the force of the criticism, we believe, only convinces the seekers that we do not understand. We appear to be sweeping trouble under the rug. They may have been devastated by a criticism; we must show that we understand why. Consequently, the seminar took as its first principle to state the negative argument as fully and accurately as we can. We try not to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic. In no other way can we persuade the doubters that we understand the problem.

Secondly, we try to avoid dogmatic answers. Rather than replace the dogmatic negative attacks of the critics with our own dogmatic answers, we attempt to show that a more positive interpretation is possible. Critics often claim that Joseph’s sins were so egregious as to utterly disqualify him as a prophet. We can understand their viewpoint, but we think there is another side to the story. Rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip. In the long run, we believe this approach will persuade questioners more effectively than claims to certainty where none is possible. We believe in stating our own strong convictions about the church as a whole, but we do not to pretend to perfect knowledge about complex historical questions.

We know that airing criticisms troubles many Latter-day Saints. Like most Church teachers, the members of the seminar do not want to draw attention to questions that will only unsettle faithful members. But we also feel that silence is not the answer. The absence of instruction troubles questioners more than anything. They feel they have been betrayed because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet. The gaps in their education leave them disillusioned and angry.

To counteract this lack of preparation, the seminar members have taken as our motto the scripture that begins: “As all have not faith, teach one another” (D&C 88:118). We are encouraged by the scriptural recognition that not all have faith, and by the appealing remedy, “teach one another.” For many questioners, loneliness is the heart of the problems. No one seems to understand. We are enjoined by this scripture to find these seekers and bring them into a fellowship of inquiry. We hope that our papers will help Church teachers create safe havens where questions may be asked and answers explored--where we can teach one another.

Matt Francom and Podcast Music

My next interview with Matt Francom is completed.  It will be on the Mormon Discussion Podcast site Tuesday Morning.  It is a two part interview that tells the amazing faith journey of Brother Matt Francom.

My very first conversation with Matt to begin setting up this interview included him asking me what the song was that I used for the podcast.  Since then several other listeners have asked the same question.

The Song is titled "Life Unfold" and is sung by Derek Clegg.
God Bless and Warm Shoulders

Having been interviewed by John Dehlin and having enjoyed many of his interviews including those done with Richard Bushman and Terryl Givens, I was excited to see Johns recent podcast regarding his journey back into the LDS church working towards full activity.

The podcast can be found here  - http://athoughtfulfaith.org/2013/01/27/019-021-reflection-and-reconstruction-the-journey-of-john-dehlin/

It makes me wonder of all who have lost their testimony, how many come back in some way reconstructing their faith?

Steven Harper - Listening to Joseph's Smith's First Vision

Brother Steven Harper wrote a beautiful article on Joseph Smith's first vision.  It can be found at
http://ldsmag.com/article/1/12123

He also has a book coming out dealing with the same material.

For many the multiple first vision accounts catch them by surprise and unaware.  Critics point out the differences but when they are studied and examined there is little cause for alarm.

Some Quotes from the article that are worth mentioning here

In regards to why people are alarmed when notified of multiple accounts, Bro. Harper states

It’s not knowing the accounts that undermines testimony, it’s thinking that you know more about them than you do....

he gave his wry smile and said in his understated way that he didn’t think they would have that trouble if they were more inclined to read...

They blamed Joseph when they discovered that his story did not match their unfounded assumptions, which were nothing more than hypothetical ideas about what he should have said if his experience were real...

Which feeds right into what I see as the main issue of faith crisis, namely bad assumptions and expectations.

Bro. Harper has spent a lot of time with each account, many of them having held the original manuscripts they come from and he stated

I felt like I could discern between the two types of revelation in his several accounts, which helped me see that the accounts are less like photographs of what happened in the grove than they are like movies of what that experience in the grove meant to Joseph not only at the time but over time.

In regards the account where Joseph only mentions seeing the Lord he states

In other words, there is no reason to suppose that when Joseph says, “I saw two personages,” he means that he saw them at exactly the same time for precisely the same length of time, or that he did not also see others besides the two. Moreover, because the 1835 account and two of the secondary statements assert that Joseph saw one being who then revealed the other, we could interpret the 1832 account to be saying that Joseph saw one being who then revealed another while referring to both beings as “the Lord”: “the <Lord> opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord...”

Referring to why We shouldn't expect Joseph to be more clear stating his experience. 

 They defied description, after all.

Upcoming Podcast will feature Matt Francom

In the next podcast or so you will get the chance to hear my guest Matt Francom describe his faith journey out of the church having completely lost his testimony and then with the "Tender Mercies" of the Lord he makes his way back in.

He shares a beautiful journey that seems to encompass the "Prodigal Son".

Thank you
Mormon Discussion
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Introduction

Mormon Discussion Blog

My name is Bill Reel.  I am a LDS convert who joined the church 17 years ago.  I see a large segment of Latter-Day Saints who are struggling with their faith who need help.  This Blog is in conjunction with Mormon Discussion Podcast - http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/    and serves to help Latter-Day Saints strengthen their testimonies and focusing on the issues that one deals with in a Faith Crisis!!

Links about me to get this started
http://mormonstories.org/mormon-bishop-bill-reel/
http://www.fairblog.org/2012/12/12/keeping-the-faith-7a-the-reel-story/
http://www.fairblog.org/2012/12/12/keeping-the-faith-7b-the-reel-story/
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/