Tuesday, February 26, 2013

The Anthon Transcript : Two sides of a Story


This much we know - Martin Harris was sent by Joseph Smith to visit the learned in New York with a Transcript in hand.   One of those individuals he met with was professor Charles Anthon.   The transcript which allegedly contained "reformed egyptian" straight off the metal plates from the Mormon "Golden Bible" along with a proposed translation.  This is where the stories separate.  Martin Harris and Joseph SMith claim Martin came back reporting Charles Anthon had confirmed the Characters and the translation.  As we will see though, Charles Anthon has a different story to tell.  Who's lying and who is telling the truth?  That is the focus of this episode of Mormon Discussion.  What say ye?

Saturday, February 23, 2013

Kinderhook Plates - Perhaps there is more to this story.

http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Don-Bradley-Kinderhook-President-Joseph-Has-Translated-a-Portion-1.pdf

Don Bradley concludes


So what conclusions can we draw from all this? This is not really the conclusions we
can draw for all this, this is a shameless plug for my forth-coming book, The Lost 116 Pages:
Discovering the Book of Mormons Unknown  Stories, which I had optimistically thought
would be out in September, and now I’m trying to get out in November. Anyway, shameless
plug over, so conclusions here: the text that Joseph from what Clayton calls a “portion” of
the Kinderhook plates can be derived from a single character definition – so that portion
that he is describing is probably just a single character  -    near the beginning of the
Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language. Substantially the same character
appears on the Kinderhook plates as one of their most prominent characters. An eyewitness
account, written on the day of the event has Joseph Smith comparing the characters from
the two sources, finding a match and enabling him to decipher at least one of the
characters.
So, a larger conclusion that we can draw is that we’ve got both the smoking-gun –
the GAEL that he uses to translate, and we’ve got an eyewitness. We know exactly how
Joseph Smith attempted to translate from the Kinderhook plates and obtain the content
that Clayton says he did. A larger conclusion, then, that we can draw is that Joseph Smith
translated from the Kinderhook plates not by revelation, but by non-revelatory means.
So, we have James D.  Bales saying “only a bogus prophet translates bogus plates,” and
we’ve got Joseph Smith saying, “a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such.” And
when a prophet is just comparing characters in two documents, he is not “acting as such.”
Thank you.

Monday, February 18, 2013

Newest Episode = FAITH

The protion with audio from Terryl Givens comes from
http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/why-mormon-answer


Newest Episode - FAITH 
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/02/18/why-faith-is-a-choice-and-more-important-then-knowledge/

What is FAITH? How does it relate to Knowledge? Is FAITH a choice? Why should it be a choice?

Do we have to KNOW the gospel is true or is there value in just HOPING and ACTING enough?

Is it more esteemed to have FAITH or KNOWLEDGE?

Is DOUBT part of FAITH?

How can we become more comfortable with FAITH and HOPE when so many other seem sure in their KNOWLEDGE?


Friday, February 15, 2013

http://mormonchallenges.org/

http://mormonchallenges.org/

Awesome new site they begins to address faith crisis in a very real way.  Includes John Dehlin and Terryl Given's voices.   Check it out.


  • Alone

    Feeling alone, Justin shares with his father and wife his concerns about his church and comes to a new understanding of his faith and those he loves.  ...
  • Book of Abraham Challenge 3. Joseph Smith Got Nothing Right?

    But I have heard that in 1912 Egyptologists examined the same facsimiles and Joseph Smith's translations, and they say he go nothing right in the...

Monday, February 11, 2013

Richard Bushman - Podcast - Apr 27th conference "Middle"


The newest Episode is up
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/02/12/richard-bushman-describes-faith-crisis/
and centers on the 2008 comments of Richard Bushman

This episode begins by discussing where the podcast is and some of the neat things that have occurred.  We conclude by sharing remarks by  Richard Bushman
The following is Richard Bushman's introduction paper to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008.
For me he gets at the heart of it!!!!!

Information April 27th Conference "Mormons in the Middle"

Conference will take place April 26-27th
For those arriving early, there will be a potluck on Friday night.   Otherwise there will be three sessions.  
Session 1: Mental health Workshop led by two LDS licensed family therapists (Natasha Helfer Parker & Jennifer Finlayson Fife)  (noon to 1:30pm)
Session 2:  Regional Speakers:  Bill Reel, Kevin Kloosterman, another speaker pending,  (2:00pm to 3:30pm)
Tour of the Kirtland Temple:  3:30pm
Session 3:  (In the Kirtland Temple), Jan Shipps (author of several books and articles on Mormonism and Mormon culture) and Bro. Karl Anderson ( Author: Joseph Smith Kirtland), another speaker pending. (6:30pm to 8:00pm)
  
Cost:  still to be determined though likely in the $35.00 to $40.00 range.   

Saturday, February 9, 2013

Bloggernacle burnout

So......  Helping so many folks discuss Faith Crisis has placed me in burnout mode.   I need a break, so what do I do?  Let me recommend the following items to do when hovering in the bloggernacle has you burned out.  First, step away from LDS discussion boards and blogs like mine for two weeks and let all your feelings subside...  then pick one or two things from this list.

1.) read the Book of Mormon...  I mean really read it.  Put all your emotion aside and read it looking for the words of eternal life......  man does this work for me.

2.) find a talk on byu speeches website      http://speeches.byu.edu/

also BYU-Idaho Speeches     http://web.byui.edu/devotionalsandspeeches/speeches.aspx

My personal favorite =  http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1966  - Brad Wilcox - his grace is suffcient

3.) read a good book that has nothing to do with mormonism
my recommendations
Hatchet by Gary Paulsen (Bradbury)
The Giver by Lois Lowry (Houghton)
Where the Red Fern Grows
and
Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry by Mildred D. Taylor (Dial)
yes they are all childrens books.... but trust me you'll like them

4.) go serve someone... it always feels good

5.)  do something for you... ballroom dancing with my wife is one of my things... find yours

Best Parables/Stories in the church

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/08/26/best-of-stories-and-parables-in-the-church/

This was an older episode of my young podcast that gets overlooked.  One that I really love.

Monday, February 4, 2013

Matt Francom Interview is up


Matt Francom Interview is up
http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/

Part 1
Feb 4th, 2013 by mormondiscussion
I sit down with Matt Francom.  We discuss his difficult childhood,  rebellion as a young man, his Mission, and his deconstruction of his faith.  He discusses his encounter with polygamy in the church's early history and a tragic event in his life that made polygamy hit home.  We discuss his removing himself and his family into inactivity and complete disbelief.  He ends part 1 describing his lowest moment on his journey.

Part 2
Matt Francom retells how he rebounded from his lowest point outside the church recounting the tender mercies of the Savior to slowly bring him full circle.  He talks about the impact of a supportive but encouraging spouse, Leaving room to arrive somewhere beautiful, and how he found his way....... back  in the LDS church, active and with a vibrant testimony of Jesus Christ.

Saturday, February 2, 2013

Richard Bushman : Faith Crisis


http://dan-christiansen.blogspot.com/2008_08_01_archive.html


Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?

These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all. They become atheist or agnostic. Some feel the restrictions they grew up with no longer apply. The strength has been drained out of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and chastity. They partly welcome the new freedom of their agnostic condition. Now they can do anything they please without fear of breaking the old Mormon rules. The results may not be happy for them or their families.

Others piece together a morality and a spiritual attitude that stops them from declining morally, but they are not in an easy place. When they go to church, , they are not comfortable. Sunday School classes and Sacrament meeting talks about Joseph Smith and the early church no longer ring true. How can these people believe these “fairy tales,” the inquirers ask. Those who have absorbed doses of negative material live in two minds: their old church mind which now seems naive and credulous, and their new enlightened mind with its forbidden knowledge learned on the Internet and from critical books.

A friend who is in this position described the mindset of the disillusioned member this way:

“Due to the process of learning, which they have gone through, these [two-minded] LDS often no longer accept the church as the only true one (with the only true priesthood authority and the only valid sacred ordinances), but they see it as a Christian church, in which good, inspired programs are found as well as failure and error. They no longer consider inspiration, spiritual and physical healing, personal and global revelation limited to the LDS church. In this context, these saints may attend other churches, too, where they might have spiritual experiences as well. They interpret their old spiritual experiences differently, understanding them as testimonies from God for them personally, as a result of their search and efforts, but these testimonies don’t necessarily have to be seen as a confirmation that the LDS church is the only true one.

“Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

He then offers a recommendation:

“It is necessary that the church not only shows more support and openness to these ‘apostates’ but also teaches and advises all members, bishops, stake presidents etc., who usually don’t know how to deal with such a situation in terms of organizational and ecclesiastical questions and – out of insecurity – fail to treat the critical member with the necessary love and respect that even a normal stranger would receive.

Those are the words of someone who has lost belief in many of the fundamentals and is working out a new relationship to the Church. Other shaken individuals recover their belief in the basic principles and events but are never quite the same as before. Their knowledge, although no longer toxic, gives them a new perspective. They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. Here are some of the characteristics of people who have passed through this ordeal but managed to revive most of their old beliefs.

1. They often say they learned the Prophet was human. They don’t expect him to be a model of perfect deportment as they once thought. He may have taken a glass of wine from time to time, or scolded his associates, or even have made business errors. They see his virtues and believe in his revelations but don’t expect perfection.

2. They also don’t believe he was led by revelation in every detail. They see him as learning gradually to be a prophet and having to feel his way at times like most Church members. In between the revelations, he was left to himself to work out the methods of complying with the Lord’s commandments. Sometimes he had to experiment until he found the right way.

3. These newly revived Latter-day Saints also develop a more philosophical attitude toward history. They come to see (like professional historians) that facts can have many interpretations. Negative facts are not necessarily as damning as they appear at first sight. Put in another context along side other facts, they do not necessarily destroy Joseph Smith’s reputation.

4. Revived Latter-day Saints focus on the good things they derive from their faith–the community of believers, the comforts of the Holy Spirit, the orientation toward the large questions of life, contact with God, moral discipline, and many others. They don’t want to abandon these good things. Starting from that point of desired belief, they are willing to give Joseph Smith and the doctrine a favorable hearing. They may not be absolutely certain about every item, but they are inclined to see the good and the true in the Church.

At the heart of this turmoil is the question of trust. Disillusioned Latter-day Saints feel their trust has been betrayed. They don’t know whom to trust. They don’t dare trust the old feelings that once were so powerful, nor do they trust church leaders. They can only trust the new knowledge they have acquired. Those who come back to the Church are inclined to trust their old feelings. Their confidence in the good things they knew before is at least partially restored. But they sort out the goodness that seems still vital from the parts that now seem no longer tenable. Knowledge not only has given them a choice, it has compelled them to choose. They have to decide what they really believe. In the end, many are more stable and convinced than before. They feel better prepared to confront criticism openly, confident they can withstand it.
- - - -

The members of the seminar on “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” a group of Religious Education and CES faculty who met at BYU for six weeks in the summer of 2008, are among those who have known Latter-day Saints in this state of confusion and doubt. We have had many opportunities to talk to questioners about their problems and admit that we have often fallen short in our answers. We came together in hopes of learning to do better. Besides gathering information on a series of specific issues, we have discussed how best to deal with questioning Saints. What way of speaking is most likely to win their trust and convince them we have their best interests at heart?

We began by agreeing that criticisms of Joseph Smith should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. The negative attacks that disturb first-time readers are usually based on facts, not merely prejudiced fabrications. To play down the force of the criticism, we believe, only convinces the seekers that we do not understand. We appear to be sweeping trouble under the rug. They may have been devastated by a criticism; we must show that we understand why. Consequently, the seminar took as its first principle to state the negative argument as fully and accurately as we can. We try not to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic. In no other way can we persuade the doubters that we understand the problem.

Secondly, we try to avoid dogmatic answers. Rather than replace the dogmatic negative attacks of the critics with our own dogmatic answers, we attempt to show that a more positive interpretation is possible. Critics often claim that Joseph’s sins were so egregious as to utterly disqualify him as a prophet. We can understand their viewpoint, but we think there is another side to the story. Rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip. In the long run, we believe this approach will persuade questioners more effectively than claims to certainty where none is possible. We believe in stating our own strong convictions about the church as a whole, but we do not to pretend to perfect knowledge about complex historical questions.

We know that airing criticisms troubles many Latter-day Saints. Like most Church teachers, the members of the seminar do not want to draw attention to questions that will only unsettle faithful members. But we also feel that silence is not the answer. The absence of instruction troubles questioners more than anything. They feel they have been betrayed because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet. The gaps in their education leave them disillusioned and angry.

To counteract this lack of preparation, the seminar members have taken as our motto the scripture that begins: “As all have not faith, teach one another” (D&C 88:118). We are encouraged by the scriptural recognition that not all have faith, and by the appealing remedy, “teach one another.” For many questioners, loneliness is the heart of the problems. No one seems to understand. We are enjoined by this scripture to find these seekers and bring them into a fellowship of inquiry. We hope that our papers will help Church teachers create safe havens where questions may be asked and answers explored--where we can teach one another.

Friday, February 1, 2013

Matt Francom and Podcast Music

My next interview with Matt Francom is completed.  It will be on the Mormon Discussion Podcast site Tuesday Morning.  It is a two part interview that tells the amazing faith journey of Brother Matt Francom.

My very first conversation with Matt to begin setting up this interview included him asking me what the song was that I used for the podcast.  Since then several other listeners have asked the same question.

The Song is titled "Life Unfold" and is sung by Derek Clegg.
God Bless and Warm Shoulders